Quiet Cracking: The hidden crisis in the workplace

Host: [00:00:00] Welcome to Talent Talks, the L&D podcast about the future of work and the talent driving it forward. The world of work is changing fast, from AI reshaping strategies to new definitions of success, and the push for people-first mindsets. Learning leaders are being asked to do more, do it better, and do it faster than ever before.

Together, let’s learn, relearn, and sometimes even unlearn what L&D can look like in today’s world. I’m your host, Gina Lionatos, and this is Talent Talks.

Talent Talks is brought to you by TalentLMS, the easy-to-use training platform that delivers real business results from day one. Learn more at TalentLMS.com.

[00:01:00] On today’s episode, 

Lia Garvin: We are putting a lot of pressure on managers to navigate and keep a team motivated and keep them supported through less promotions, less raises, less bonuses, less opportunities, constant turmoil. All of these shifts talk about AI and automation. It’s like how much more can folks take?

Host: You’ve heard of Quiet Quitting, but what about Quiet Cracking? It’s that moment where people haven’t quit their jobs yet, but they’ve started to quietly come undone. In this episode, I’m joined by Leah Garvin to talk about how to spot it, what managers can do to help, and how a thoughtful approach to learning and development could be the key to turning things around.

Stay with us.[00:02:00] 

Leah, thank you for joining. Really excited to have you with us today at Talent Talks. 

Lia Garvin: Thank you so much for having me. So excited to be here as well. 

Host: In recent years, workplace wellbeing has taken center stage with terms like burnout and Quiet Quitting, dominating the conversation. Back in spring, the team here at TalentLMS uncovered another reaction to workplace pressure.

We coined the term Quiet Cracking after one of our primary researchers on workplace happiness found that over half of the employees surveyed had felt a persistent feeling of workplace unhappiness that leads to disengagement, poor performance, and an increased desire to quit. And since we identified and coined the term, it’s clearly resonated.

We’ve seen over 600 media mentions internationally, and the likes of Forbes, Fast Company, and Fortune Magazine, all covering it. And Leah, I know you, too, have also spoken and written about it. Before we dig into Quiet Cracking and all that comes from that, why do you [00:03:00] think this concept has struck a chord with so many people?

Lia Garvin: Yeah, well, first of all, what an honor to be talking with the group that coined the term, because it resonated with me right away. And I think you know why it’s striking such a chord, for the workforce it feels like: how much more can we take? You know, between COVID and this transition into navigating hybrid teams and more distributed work, more than ever, you know, shifting priorities, shifting investments around talent development.

Now a lot of folks are maybe that were hybrid or being brought into the office, you know, more days they had been used to. We’ve got so much uncertainty in the world, I think. And then with all that uncertainty, folks are scared to leave a job because of the instability. 

And I think we’re at this pressure cooker where we are slowly, like you said, feeling, you know, I don’t know how much more I can deal with, but we’re not actually able to make the leap [00:04:00] because of other factors at play. And so I think it’s really describing this breaking point that’s lasting a long time. You know, a lot of times at this breaking point, okay, you hit it, and then you can make a move or your withdrawal or whatever, and you start on a path to figure out what’s next for you.

But we’re in this holding pattern that’s feeling so unstable, and you know, I do a lot of work with managers, and you know, they’re having to field so much more than they ever did before. Right. And so at a certain point they can’t, or they don’t have the answers. And then it means HR teams are having to field more than they ever did before.

So we’re all just like way over capacity on what we could be dealing with. 

Host: And hence it’s struck a chord. 

Lia Garvin: Yes. 

Host: Uh, very much so. From your experience, what do you think it is about corporate culture and workplace culture in general that is lending itself to breeding these feelings of insecurity and uncertainty at work?[00:05:00] 

Lia Garvin: Well, I’m just gonna call it when there’s a fear of layoffs, even if they’re not going to be happening on your team, or you don’t know if they are, people look around, they’re reading the news, and they’re thinking, what’s, you know, when is it gonna come here? What’s happening next here? We have all the conversation around AI and automations.

You know, every day there’s a different headline that jobs are lost because of AI, and that it’s actually not because of AI, it was ’cause of what we’re hiring, but your, our employees, our workforce is seeing layoffs, AI uncertainty. Oh gosh, when’s it coming for me? When’s the other shoe gonna drop? And I think when there’s a real disconnect between what sort of company leadership and potentially even HR teams are talking about and what employees are hearing or what’s kind of coming down the pipe to them, some of the messaging, what folks are even able to share with employees.

So then when you don’t have a lot of information, you just start guessing and assuming the worst because, you know, you just look around, and you’re seeing another headline every single [00:06:00] day about something catastrophic happening. So I think there’s a lot of information we’re being fed without a lot of answers, and so that just sends kind of the rumor mill going.

We start spiraling and employees are feeling really, really, you know, uncertain right now. Employee engagement, right, is at all-time low at 21% globally. Four out of five people are like, ugh, I don’t know if I can do this. It’s not a good state right now. 

Host: And I kind of wonder as well, how much of this kind of state of Quiet Cracking is really kind of a result of the broader economic and macro kind of uncertainty versus what’s happening within organizations.

And if, if it was just one or the other, if the situation may not be as dire as it is, or if it’s just the perfect storm of all of these factors kind of coming together at the same time. 

Lia Garvin: I agree. And I think that’s the challenge, right? When you are an HR leader, [00:07:00] you know, you’re looking around and saying, hey, there are no signals potentially that in our company, even in our industry, like settle down folks.

And it can feel like, well, you know, why is there a little bit of a hysteria around it? And I think it is because of the broader kind of folks look around, and they think, well if I’m unhappy, or I’m burned out, it may be really hard to get another job. Right. Especially if you’re a more senior employee.

It’s really difficult right now to find those senior roles. Now the lower, the more entry level, some of those are being automated, so I think there’s a broader macro, as you say, perception of like the wheels fell off the train. And we don’t know what’s happening. And it’s putting a huge amount of pressure on HR leaders and company leaders to have all the answers.

A real feeling of uncertainty around, well, what can we say? And we don’t wanna overpromise. There is a lot of uncertainty, but there are some knowns right now. It creates a lot of complexity on the messaging, so you know, as to not be inauthentic and to [00:08:00] not, you know, say too much or too little that I think, a lot of us have never had to face before. 

Host: Yeah, I think that’s so true, and I mean, obviously your work, Leah, is really focused on coaching future leaders and helping middle management. And I, I can imagine that now this is a, a challenge that is hitting them, you know, squarely, perhaps they’re not getting the support they need from the organization at a higher level, or perhaps they’re not spotting the signs.

What would your advice be to managers in spotting some of the signs of Quiet Cracking? Do you think there might be some telltale behavioral cues that they could look out for? 

Lia Garvin: Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, I think prefacing it with, I think it’s, you know, between data change between 60%, 70, 77% of managers start, take on the role with no training or no kind of upskilling to, to get them there.

A lot of us, myself included, became a people manager because we were a great individual contributor. And then there was an opening manager. It’s like, hey, you know, you’d be great at [00:09:00] leading a team. And so it’s, it’s um, you know, an honor to be given that opportunity. But then we’re in the role and like we’re faced with, oh gosh, I don’t know how to handle this.

I don’t necessarily know how to think about enabling others instead of just doing my work. I don’t know how to delegate. I don’t know how to, like you said, spot these different challenges. And so I say that because, I think it’s twofold. I think we definitely, more broadly, I’m a huge, you know, advocate and I have training programs myself and a new digital program that I just launched to upskill managers at scale, and managers also, I really encourage folks listening, if you’re a manager, also, to take it upon yourself. 

Your company may or may not have resources. They may be about to bring something on. They may have brought on a ton of stuff. You still have to do work too, to actually internalize it, to practice it, to think about it.

And so I think like you’re saying, one thing I’m hearing a lot as a manager that hasn’t been given a lot of support saying, well, like I don’t know how to deal with this. [00:10:00] It’s not my problem. It’s not my, yes, it is, like it’s the role you’re in. If you wanna keep that job, keep getting paid, and hopefully rise through the ranks, continue to grow. This is now your responsibility. 

And so, yes, it’s a twofold. It’s the company and then you. So then how do you individually spot some of these signs? I think we’ve got to be listening to what, you know, reading the room a little bit, what’s not being said, you know, a lot of folks will say, yeah, everything’s fine, or, you know, I’m good.

But their tone is different. Their enthusiasm. Maybe the project, they used to be the first to volunteer to take on a project, and now you’re like, wait a second, and I haven’t heard from, you know, Joe in a while, what’s going on with him or her? Right? And so I think we have to be observing more and asking more questions, right?

So, watching any shifts in behavior. Asking folks how they’re doing, you know, how projects are going, and asking them again, if they say it was good, you know, everything’s fine. We ask again next week, we ask again the [00:11:00] following. We keep checking in with folks because there will be a time when they’re like, you know what? This thing was difficult, right? Or this thing came up. 

And then the third thing I think is when there are potentially, when you see somebody’s frustrated, and this is probably the hardest skill for a lot of managers, is to not be like, oh, I don’t wanna open that can of worms. I don’t wanna deal with that.

When you see somebody’s frustrated or seems like they need support, now it really is the time to step up and to have that, hey, let’s chat for 15 minutes. I’ve noticed, you know, like, a little less enthusiasm, or you seem frustrated, or you shared frustration. Let’s talk about what you need. You know, is there a difficult stakeholder and you wanna kind of brainstorm how to tackle the next conversation?

Is it that you know the deadlines are a little aggressive? Can we load balance what’s on your plate? And actually, like proactively entering conversation that may be a little bit tricky for you. I think a lot of times we worry that, I don’t have time for that. I’m already, I’m [00:12:00] so overloaded myself. How can I even imagine in these conversations, a 20-minute conversation to course correct.

We’ll save hours and hours of having to deal with this later and weeks of stress if the person leaves and you have to rehire. So these little things don’t take a lot of time. It’s really important to do those. 

Host: I really love that point around looking out for what’s not being said or what’s maybe being said a little differently to how it’s been said in the past.

And you yourself published a really interesting article on LinkedIn, Leah. It spoke to Quiet Cracking in high performers, and I think this is a great way to help businesses sit up and take notice of the potential dangers. 

Lia Garvin: I think the, the biggest reason this is so important is ’cause the high performers typically set the tone and the culture and really the pace of the work on the team.

And so that’s where it is so critical to be keeping an eye on the folks that usually are carrying a bigger workload. I think, you know, [00:13:00] we can get into a situation of the squeaky wheel gets the grease and we focus more on the folks that we have to pull up and that aren’t quite getting it, and we have to give the critical feedback to. 

But actually we need to be reinforcing the right behaviors and giving recognition and, you know, making sure the high performers are doing well. Because otherwise if they leave, we take a nose dive on performance honestly. And you actually, it’s not just, you know, losing one, you could lose like five times productivity with one person.

And so I think what I would do with the high performers specifically is really lean more into that recognition and acknowledgement of the work. Because a lot of times, you know, high performers, yeah, we’re, you know, as a former corporate high performer myself, we’re doing it for the career and the promotion and the, you know, accolades.

But we’re also doing it because we have that personal motivation and drive, and so recognition around, hey, like, I appreciate you’ve [00:14:00] been stepping in more. I see you’ve been taking more on, what can we do to support you? And showing that they’re not being taken advantage of and that it’s not being overlooked. That goes a really long way. If someone, you know, I think a lot of times, middle managers don’t have a ton of control over compensation and things like that. Maybe there’s, you know, that’s decided somewhere else. Even promotions can be decided in committees, so it’s not over promising, but understanding that high performer’s goals, making a plan with them of how you’re, what you’re gonna do to support them.

You know, and saying, hey, you know, I know you’re looking to get promoted next year. Let’s, you know I’m gonna talk to some folks. You talk to some, what are some of the projects that you need to be doing to really line up for that? So you become a partner with them and their growth. And I think that builds a lot of resilience against feeling like, you know, this hopelessness.

Host: I love that. That’s great stuff. The recognition, and I think to your point, finding the little points of motivation that the [00:15:00] individual will resonate more with. You know, some might resonate with different kind of approaches. So I think that makes perfect sense. So in our same research, this is an interesting one, we found that 47% of people who were suffering from Quiet Cracking said that managers weren’t listening to employees’ concerns. So, one of the things we talk a lot about at TalentLMS is practical enablement. So it’s not just enough to say, support your team. We need to show managers how in a way that’s accessible and relevant to their day-to-day.

Right? So, do you think that the issue is that managers are not really listening or that they perhaps don’t have the tools or the knowledge to actually spot and manage the signals, or are their hands tied and there’s just not a lot that they can do in that time, whether it’s because of broader organizational challenges and so on.

Lia Garvin: Yeah, I think it’s the second, which is also reinforced by the third. So, meaning, I [00:16:00] think that both lack of skills and lack of control creates the sentiment of like not listening. And actually in my digital manager training program, The New Manager Playbook, we focus on this specifically because there is so much out of management control.

And so we actually walk through how managers can deal with uncertainty, with conflict, with folks feeling this sense of, you know, maybe a dissatisfaction with their work or their priorities. And because managers don’t really have the tools and so then when they’re faced with a challenge, then they kind of back away.

Or they’re like, well, I, there’s nothing I can do about it. And so I really do think the first thing we need to do is upskill managers. And that’s why I focus my work around that, because I think when we have the skills, we understand how to apply that to a different context. So if we’re like, okay, how do I talk about not having all the answers, you know?

Then I can apply that to a reorg or a layoff or a [00:17:00] budget cut or a priority shift. When I understand like a framework for how to navigate that or how to have a conversation with a team member that’s feeling really unmotivated, when I understand that, then I can start to apply it to different situations, and I don’t just, you know, freeze up.

And so I think that’s why the skill-building is so important. And why it also immediately takes this pressure off, you know, HR teams because when a manager has that ability to be the first like line of defense for these conversations, well now they’re actually doing their job, of course correcting it. I think the truth though is a lot is outside of manager control.

Like the third scenario you posed, I think. We are putting a lot of pressure on managers to navigate and keep a team motivated and keep them supported through less promotions, less raises, less bonuses, less opportunities, constant turmoil. All of these shifts [00:18:00]. Talk about AI and automation. It’s like, how much more can folks take that are not in huge positions of authority? 

And so I really encourage companies to think about, you know, that there are gonna be hiccups, there are gonna be, you know, challenges. And so when we pair that with not investing in upskilling, literally what do we expect?

Host: It’s true, right? Managers need training on a good day now more than ever. 

Lia Garvin: Yeah. 

Host: Managers need a whole other set of training now to kind of be equipped for this day and age. 

Lia Garvin: Exactly, and so I think the truth is during COVID, in the beginning, in the early days, we saw a huge, like upleveling of employee support.

There was more, you know, I don’t know, at least I worked at Google at the time, there was how do you navigate feeling uncertainty. Like all this fear around what’s happening around even vaccines and going back to office, there was like a ton. And I think at the time I was a middle [00:19:00] manager, and I was like, this is very helpful.

Like we’re getting some things of like, how do you talk to your teams about this? Because managers, that was kinda the first time they were saying, I feel like I have to be a therapist, like navigating. And then I think right now we’re in a moment where a lot of that support’s backed off. The stress has not gone down, it’s only higher.

And we’re expecting them to deliver at the same rate, maybe do more with less even. And I don’t know, you know, I, I think we have to realize that small investments, whether it’s a book or a speaker or a training or peer mentoring, like literally, I don’t even know, but something to say to a manager, Hey, your role is different. The situation’s complex, you’re faced with a lot. Here are the tools that you have. Here are ways we can support you. And actually like naming the moment, talking about it, and giving them something. 

Host: And here’s the plot, twist managers are also at risk of Quiet Cracking, right? 

Lia Garvin: Yeah. 

Host: They’re not immune.

Lia Garvin: [00:20:00] Exactly. And that’s what’s so funny is that, you know, managers, it’s reported, they have a higher burnout rate than individual contributors. So, wait a second. And also, you know, now there are less people like three in 10 even wanna be a manager, so there’s less of a pool to choose from. That’s a signal that people are looking at the job and saying, ugh, you know I don’t wanna do that. I’d rather just, you know, do the basics of my role. I don’t want all this extra stuff. And then also not get paid more. We’re not painting a great picture. 

But the truth is, I think that being a manager, it can be one of the most rewarding jobs out there. It can scale an organization.

When I hear like, should manager be replaced with AI, like it’s like a punch in the stomach, I’m like, absolutely not. Like the true potential of having a team with great leadership and great managers is that it can help every single person scale. Like that is the ultimate vision, and that’s what we want.

So let’s give our managers the tools to do that. And it’s literally [00:21:00] foundations on, we said, feedback, expectation setting, having one-on-ones. What are these foundational activities, behaviors, and skills that they need that give their team members the sense of like: somebody’s got this, someone’s looking out for me.

And then it really opens the floodgates for people to be able to perform. And I know that because I’ve seen it. I’ve been there, I’ve coached people through it. I’ve, you know, trained teams and managers in companies all over the world from Google to FIFA to, you know, like small businesses. It’s when we do it, it really works, and it doesn’t take a huge investment.

Host: It’s not a fun time to be a manager. So whatever we can do to kind of alleviate that and help build them up, as you said, I think makes a huge difference at this point beyond the managers, uh, just having another kind of step back and look at the organization. And the role that the organization plays as a whole. What kind of guardrails do you think businesses can have [00:22:00] in place to make sure that the workplace is one where something like Quiet Cracking is less likely to happen?

Whether it’s the way that they’re, you know, approaching new hires and even veteran leaders. 

Lia Garvin: So my stance actually on both burnout and Quiet Cracking kind of at the organizational level is around having a realistic set of priorities that folks can deliver on. I know it sounds simple, but I think the expectation, people have to be able to meet that, even if it’s a stretch, but it has to be in this universe because what happens if we have a workload that truly is unsustainable, you immediately lose accountability because people feel they have to agree to stuff they know they can’t deliver on. And that creates this culture breakdown right away of when we have a culture in a company that’s, you’ve gotta say yes, or you’re not considered a team player where we have 500 top priorities and eight team members, or you know, or everything’s on [00:23:00] fire, everything’s urgent, and we can’t have a dialogue around what’s realistic.

Again, even if we’re shooting for the moon. But like again, still in the universe. If we have a completely unreasonable like sort of set of priorities and workloads on folks, that is immediately going to lead to these challenges and immediately gonna exacerbate it. I think the answer to this truly is having a real reckoning with what is realistic to get done.

Again, it can be very aggressive, ambitious, but it has to be on planet Earth. And then we talk about, hey, there can be performance incentives that are reasonable for when you stretch, but it’s again, not asking for unreasonable, you know, expectations. That’s where I think we need to be falling. I think right now, there’s talk of that 9, 9, 6, schedule 9:00 AM to 9:00 PM six days a week. I can’t even comment on that. Like, obviously, I’m not a fan. [00:24:00] 

Host: Let’s not give it any air time. 

Lia Garvin: Literally, right? It’s like, if this is what you think is going to be the answer to solving things like burnout and Quiet Cracking, it’s like absolutely not.

Right. So my opinion, and I would say this, you know, when I worked at in companies like Google, uh, you know, when we’d see the work isn’t going to get done, if you have a completely unreasonable amount, the question is who is going to decide which pieces of the work get done? And that is a risk management question.

So I think companies need to think of it. If well-being is not a concern, what about risk management? What about product quality? Right? these things are the byproducts of team members feeling burned out. 

Host: That’s great. I mean, it’s so important to find ways to frame these kinds of concerns. Finding a way to frame it, reframe it, reposition it in a way that may make it more likely to get heard and noticed, unfortunately, but that’s just the reality of business, right. [00:25:00].

So another staggering stat that really came to light through the report is that employees that have had training, so employees that have seen companies invest in their training in the last 12 months, felt 140% more secure in their own jobs, which is a big number. Why do you think structured training makes people feel more secure?

Do you think it’s about the feeling of investment progress, or do you think it’s just giving them a sense of more clarity in the chaos of things? 

Lia Garvin: My opinion is, I think it’s the first, I think it’s when we feel invested in, we invest back. We say, oh, this company cares about me and my success. So they must think that, you know, I am worth, you know keeping and supporting. 

I think that is the first signal. It’s one of the easiest signals we can do, and I think for HR teams. I noticed this when I started working with a lot of companies on actions related to the employee engagement survey. There was a lot of times when I would go through the results with HR teams, they would, there’d be [00:26:00] feedback of, hey, this score is really low, but we’re actually doing a lot on this.

Maybe it was perception around the quality of the employee benefits or pay fairness or things like that when it was a little bit in kind of the HR domain. And my advice then would be, okay, well let’s communicate about that. Let’s be really proactive with, hey, you know, this is some of the work we’ve done to ensure pay fairness or these are some of the ways that our company really, you know, sets ourselves apart as far as benefits. Because a lot of times the middle manager doesn’t explain a lot of that stuff, right? And so I really encourage folks to be proactive about the investment they’re making in their people. Because a lot of times there are a lot of resources, and employees aren’t tapping into them.

And then. You know, either HR or you know, whoever feels like, well, we’ve given all these people all these things, why are they still complaining? And I think it’s that we’ve gotta do a ton of messaging around it. And so if you launch, let’s say, a manager development program, [00:27:00] sharing with managers and getting them excited, and then talking to ICS about it and saying, Hey, we want you to have the best manager you can.

And that’s why we’re investing in your managers. And if you’re considering a path in becoming a manager, here are the ways in which we’re gonna help you get there. Wow. Like all of that sort of upfront conversation didn’t take any change to the experience. It just shifted the perception. 

Host: I think it also, when we look at the impact that training and learning and development can have on the individual as well, I think it kind of talks to the sense of purpose that a person comes to work with, and I think this is kind of an unspoken part of Quiet Cracking as well.

I think it was one recent survey that we did because at TalentLMS, we are constantly running researches. It was around 77%, 78% of people saying that learning a new skill gave them a sense of purpose at work. And I think that the progress and the upskilling can be seen as really important to the individual.

[00:28:00] So that may not need as much of the comms piece around it because it’s immediately valuable to the individual and kind of feeds into their sense of purpose. And I think, I think there’s really a connection between Quiet Cracking and maybe feeling like your career has stalled or feeling a little aimless.

Certainly the words stuck comes to mind as well. I think that learning pathways can really be a good way of reigniting that when people feel that the business is investing in them. Even just with a regular skills check-in, or you know, a more broad training, I think confidence and engagement can really shift, and we see that in the research that we run as well.

Lia Garvin: I love that. And to add to that, I think that is the most important thing to do, especially if promotions are slowing or there’s kind of long gaps between being able to, what it feels like to be advancing that. Like, hey, I have this huge reason to be here because I can develop all of these [00:29:00] skills even if, you know, maybe I would’ve hoped for promotion next year. And it’s gonna come a year or two later. 

But wow, look at all of the ways that I can build myself for this company or wherever I go in the future. So it’s also a loyalty builder, and I’m so glad you called that out because I think that’s another challenge we can run into as managers or HR teams. If again, there are limited number of promotions or the advancement path isn’t as quickly as folks would want, is you’re showing people, there’s actually a ton of ways to be advancing and developing. 

You know, it may not be this one route, but showing them that, hey, while you’re in this company, on this team, look at all of the ways you can build up your skills.

I think that’s a real another way to reenergize and reengage your team is reminding them of like, hey, even as a manager saying, hey, one thing I’m really excited about is that we have these opportunities to be upskilling. Let’s look at what are you interested in? Let’s make a plan for you, [00:30:00] right?

And you show your team member that there is more out there than maybe the one path that they were looking at. And again, that I’ve also seen really work to build loyalty and retention because there’s a lot of kind of, not fringe benefits, but like there’s a 360 picture of the reasons that this, it’s worthwhile staying in this company or team.

Host: Do you think there might be a generational difference in the way that the workforce approaches and deals with stress and wellness at work? What do you think we can learn from one another? We’re obviously at a point now in the workplace where so many different age groups and generations are now rubbing shoulders at work and collaborating in the workplace.

What do you think maybe the expectations might be by generation, or what can perhaps different generations take from each other? 

Lia Garvin: Yeah, I think, you know, there’s a, you know, generalization around younger folks or Gen Z, that they have a little bit stronger [00:31:00] boundaries with kind of their time, with how much they invest into a job with how long they stay.

And I think the big takeaway is, you know, a little bit more agency around what you wanna be doing and how you wanna be spending your time. I think with any generalization, there could be extremes around that, but I think there’s an interesting, a real drive to be doing something meaningful and not real, and have a kind of a hunger until you find that.

And so there’s interest in a lot of different things, and maybe only being somewhere for a short time because, so it’s kind of like an experimentation mindset, and I think there’s some, you know, interesting things to be taking from that. I think for, you know, Millennials are sort of in the middle and then like Gen X and prior was a little bit more like, this is your job, keep your head down. Just do it. You know, keep the nose to the grindstone, whatever. 

And I think that led to some of the overworking and these feelings of [00:32:00] burnout that we, which really struggled to, to, you know, to recover from. But I think there was an understanding of, you know, success.

You know, promotions and growth isn’t like, you know, on a weekly basis where I think we do need to meet in the middle and have, you know, motivating sort of, you know, look at the cadence of growth across different companies and different industries. Ensure that it’s, you know, motivating and inspiring, but also like there is work that has to do, there are results that have to be shown.

And I don’t think, I think right now there’s a little bit of like if I don’t have a promotion overnight, or this huge thing happens within the first few months, like, you know, there’s nothing for me here. And I think there’s a managing of expectations that can happen. If a manager’s having a career conversation or it’s mapped out or shared in onboarding or even interviewing, like, hey, what does a career trajectory look like for your role?

And someone can kind of [00:33:00] decide, am I comfortable with that or not? 

Host: Yeah, and I think that different generations also expect different, or need different kinds of support, right? So again, this is where a tailored approach is absolutely needed. 

Lia Garvin: Yeah. 

Host: Finally, if there’s one shift that you hope to see in workplace culture in the next five years, that will help tackle the causes of Quiet Cracking. And there’s a bunch of macro that we have no control over. So let’s look at the more you know, internal. So if there was one shift that you hope to see in workplace culture in the next five years that will help tackle the causes of Quiet Cracking, what would it be?

Lia Garvin: I mean, it’s upskilling managers hands down. Like you said, there is so much out of our control, and by upskilling managers on how to navigate these things, understand them, talk about them, support their team through them, lead their team through them. That is the answer. I think there is so much that’s coming that’s unknown, that it can look like, well, [00:34:00] why should we invest in managers when we don’t know how the, you know, AI is gonna affect the industry?

Or when automation? It’s like, who, is going to help teams navigate that? That is the job of the manager, and we must equip them with the skills to be able to do that. And the less investment being made in training and development. I’m seeing kind of like it flipped on its head. There’s a huge investment on you, just like bring in AI and automation technology, and then like, okay, let’s cut, you know, span of control and make larger teams.

And it’s like, whoa, like, but the reason everyone’s freaking out right now, the reason we’re at 21% engagement is ’cause we actually didn’t set the conditions to make this like a, you know, a smooth onboarding. It happened overnight, and it’s like, well deal with it. We need to give people support to understand it, and then they can figure out, okay, how do I utilize AI to enhance myself and, you know, maximize my impact instead of feeling like it’s going to [00:35:00] replace me. How do managers make sense of that for their team? 

Upskilling managers is truly the only way that we can get through this, because I, you know, anytime there’s been these experiments of getting rid of middle managers, of which there have many, I think, you know, Google thought it like 20 years ago, Bay or Aspirin tried it last year.

It always ends really badly because people, they can’t self-organize. That’s why we have governments and cities, and these structures is like this belief of putting a bunch of smart people in a room and they’ll figure it out. That is like a fallacy, and it doesn’t work. Put a bunch of smart people in the room, and they can do great things, and then they actually create the structures of having hierarchy anyway, like they will because we need that as humans.

So, let’s invest again, it doesn’t have to be huge, you know, huge time consuming initiatives. It’s like, let’s give folks the foundations, let’s give them the support, and then we can give everyone the same [00:36:00] baseline and understand, okay, now where do we fine-tune and give an add to that? But if we have 77% of managers that have no training, we actually don’t really know what the problem is.

We, we can’t diagnose the, the low engagement without solving manager issue because low engagement is caused by unskilled managers. You know, I have this talk I call how to be a manager people wanna work for, and it’s, it’s the counter to, people don’t leave companies, they leave managers. Well, how do we get people to stay at companies? It’s also the managers. 

How do we prevent Quiet Cracking? It’s also the managers because that person has the single biggest impact on your well-being. So we’ve gotta realize how much is riding on the success of our managers, and with like the, how much is riding it. We gotta meet them with that training and support so they can meet the moment.

Host: As a manager and a person that’s been managed, I wholeheartedly [00:37:00] concur. Leah, it has been an absolute blast having you and having this conversation with you. Thank you for digging into Quiet Cracking with us. I couldn’t think of somebody who was better placed to do so. Thank you. Thank you for being part of Talent Talks today.

Lia Garvin: Thank you so much and yeah, I mean love to talk more with anybody listening. Again, if you wanna check out my manager program that’s Upscale Your Managers at Scale, it’s called the New Manager Playbook Program. It is a digital program that upscales managers in all the skills we talked about in just four to six hours.

So it’s super scalable. You can bring on, you know, new managers can go through it whenever they join. It can get a new foundation baseline for your managers, and folks are loving it across all different industries, all different kinds of stages of managers, and it’s really, you know, my solution to how do we give folks what they need to meet this moment.[00:38:00] 

Host: Thanks for tuning in. You can find Talent Talks on all podcast platforms. Subscribe now so you don’t miss an episode.

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